--- layout: post title: Overview and Logs for the Dev Meeting Held on 2019-09-22 summary: Development status, 0.15 release discussion, Network upgrade planning, and miscellaneous tags: [dev diaries, core, crypto] author: el00ruobuob / rehrar --- # Logs **\<rehrar>** ok **\<rehrar>** it's time **\<rehrar>** 1. Greetings **\<rehrar>** who all is here? **\<sgp\_>** hello :) **\<needmonero90>** Hi **\<xmrscott[m]>** Hey hey hey **\<rbrunner>** Hi **\<tevador>** hey **\<sech1>** \\o/ **\<ErCiccione[m]>** Hi **\<ferretinjapan>** so everyone except the people rehrar pinged are here, nice. **\<rehrar>** it would seem so **\<rehrar>** moneromooo: do we have you at least? :P **\<moneromooo>** Yes. **\<rehrar>** one last round for fluffypony luigi1111 ArticMine binaryFate **\<rehrar>** please join us ASAP **\<rehrar>** in the meantime, we can move on to 2. What's been completed since last meeting? **\<vtnerd\_\_>** here **\<sech1>** I've finished RandomX JIT compiler for ARM CPUs. Verification time is even better than CN/R on ARM. **\<moneromooo>** Pretty good stuff here. **\<rbrunner>** Nice **\<ArticMine>** Hi **\<dEBRUYNE>** I am here **\<meksi>** Hi **\<tevador>** so I guess we are including the ARM JIT in the release? **\<tevador>** probably no reason not to **\<moneromooo>** It can be disabled with an env var AFAIK so sure. **\<tevador>** just it hasn't been heavily tested as the x86 JIT **\<SoiMatter>** Sirs! ferretinjapan asked moi to join. **\<hyc>** since it's easily toggled off, I'd say we run with it **\<jtgrassie>** hi **\<SoiMatter>** o7 I will keep still :) **\<moneromooo>** monerod can now synced from pruned blocks (optional). I'd like this to go in before release if reviewed. **\<rehrar>** Honest question to everyone, now that CLI has reproducible builds, can we as a community decide on a date without input from Core? **\<selsta>** GUI? **\<rehrar>** that's next selsta :P **\<selsta>** yes but it would be nice to release both the CLI and GUI at the same time and that depends on core **\<moneromooo>** Pony still controls the website (for binaries to be uploaded), and the DNS records (for the hashes of the binaries). **\<rehrar>** ok so there's distribution and GUI to consider **\<dEBRUYNE>** Pony said he'd be around for the CLI & GUI release **\<rehrar>** I mean, ultimately we want to go along this road at some point to reduce centralization anyways, no? **\<moneromooo>** Also needs people to build for random OSes. Does Windows have repro builds too ? **\<ArticMine>** Do we have a release date in mind? **\<dEBRUYNE>** moneromooo: Yes **\<dEBRUYNE>** At least for the CLI **\<ErCiccione[m]>** ArticMine: i think the idea was to set a date today **\<rehrar>** so let's set one **\<rehrar>** ArticMine can represent the core team here **\<sgp\_>** October 26? **\<rehrar>** Are we thinking mid-October? End of October? **\<dEBRUYNE>** I would personally prefer a bit more towards the end of October, as that gives us a bit more leeway **\<ArticMine>** I do not ave an issue with setting a release date at this meeting **\<ErCiccione[m]>** i agree **\<hyc>** Let's go with October 31, Halloween **\<tevador>** is this the release date of the fork date? **\<tevador>** or\* **\<hyc>** it'll be scary **\<moneromooo>** I have some reservations about the stability of randomx-in-monerod. Bugs are still coming in fast. **\<needmonero90>** Monero's spoopy fork **\<rehrar>** tevador: fork date **\<dEBRUYNE>** tevador: fork date **\<sech1>** October 31 is a bit too late **\<moneromooo>** So pushing back would be good in my view :) **\<ArticMine>** and code freeze? **\<rehrar>** if mooo has reservations then maybe 31 is a decent date? **\<rehrar>** sech1: what's your reasoning? **\<tevador>** so better to not do it in the middle of the week **\<luigi1111>** I'm sorta here **\<sech1>** October 31 is kind of an edge of publicly promised "fork in October" **\<sech1>** October 26 sounds better **\<moneromooo>** I don't anyone (who counts) ever promised. **\<hyc>** assuming it's actually ready by then **\<needmonero90>** Welcome to decentralization sech1. **\<rehrar>** I am fine with 26th **\<tevador>** yeah, 26 October would be better if it's doable **\<needmonero90>** Community won't be too mad if we don't hit deadlines **\<SoiMatter>** Go with the date of the next UK election **\<hyc>** testnet has been disturbingly unstable the past few weeks. **\<hyc>** but most of the problems were unrelated to randomX **\<Inge->** Better a safe launch than an october launch. **\<ArticMine>** One key point is the time between release and fork date **\<rbrunner>** Normal testnet or the RandomX testnet? **\<hyc>** randomX testnet **\<hyc>** but the issues with peers being disconnected and banned would have happened on public testnet too if anyone bothered to exercise that **\<hyc>** basically current git master is unstable, recent changes to the networking code broke a lot. **\<sech1>** if fork is October 26 (4 weeks), would 2 weeks be enough to fix all that? **\<sech1>** and would additional 5 days help? **\<ErCiccione[m]>** i'm starting to think would be better to posticipate to after october **\<tevador>** so it looks more like November **\<ArticMine>** Release and fork date ware very different **\<dEBRUYNE>** hyc: Those recent changes will be reverted by 5905 right? **\<moneromooo>** Yes. **\<ArticMine>** We need to give people time to update **\<ErCiccione[m]>** if there are so many doubts i would just wait. No reason to rush it, this is a big fork **\<hyc>** agreed, safer to wait **\<rehrar>** so really all of this should have been discussed two weeks to a month ago **\<sgp\_>** I don't think the optics of a "late" Oct 31 date will be terrible. We can get ahead of it with the Halloween marketing. If people prefer November, then I think we should still pick a date **\<M5M400>** will this release discontinue legacy payment IDs? **\<rehrar>** so for next time we really need to start seriously discussing the fork two months prior to "planned" date **\<moneromooo>** Yes. **\<moneromooo>** Though currently not banned, just code removed. **\<dEBRUYNE>** rehrar: I don't think we could have foreseen the issues arosen on testnet **\<moneromooo>** Are any large exchanges still using them ? **\<ArticMine>** I suggest an October 31 release date with a fork date 4 weeks later **\<luigi1111>** late is far better than broken **\<sgp\_>** I can try to compile a list **\<sech1>** We still need to decide fork date and release schedule today **\<rehrar>** dEBRUYNE: literally every single fork there is a "I don't think we could have foreseen" situation? **\<needmonero90>** What happened to move fast and break things? This is tech! **\<dEBRUYNE>** Yes because there will simply be things that cannot be foreseen **\<dEBRUYNE>** You cannot perfectly plan such a thing **\<luigi1111>** I too enjoy breaking money when possible **\<rehrar>** ok, ArticMine has made a concrete suggestion **\<rehrar>** 31st release date, one month later fork date **\<sgp\_>** one month? why one month? **\<needmonero90>** I think its reasonable. **\<needmonero90>** No objection here. **\<ferretinjapan>** luigi1111, I agree, late and working is far better than on time and buggy... **\<hyc>** is that the same offset we used in previous releases? **\<M5M400>** moneromooo: i have about 330 miners still mining to payment\_id addresses. that's 5 % **\<sgp\_>** no, closer to two weeks I think **\<ArticMine>** To give people proper notice to upgrade **\<luigi1111>** that's what it ended up being **\<needmonero90>** We were pushing to the wire last time **\<needmonero90>** To be fair **\<luigi1111>** we never targeted two weeks that's simply not ideal **\<needmonero90>** Two weeks was cutting it close **\<ArticMine>** This has been an issue many times before **\<ErCiccione[m]>** yeah, one month seems fair **\<sech1>** October 31st release and November 30th fork then? **\<luigi1111>** yes we've always pushed releases to late but doesn't mean we shouldn't try to do better **\<ArticMine>** sounds fine to me **\<sgp\_>** So what specific fork date? **\<tevador>** 30th Nov **\<rbrunner>** November 30 is again Saturday, which is nice **\<sech1>** let's hope CN/R holds without ASICs until then :) **\<ArticMine>** So when is code freeze? **\<moneromooo>** Whenever we don't have anything left we want to merge :) **\<ErCiccione[m]>** now with reproducible build releases should be much faster, at least for CLI. We rarely managed to release at the time we decided **\<needmonero90>** October 31st makes sense imo **\<sgp\_>** I think having a release in October will help with optics. And a 31st update is easy to brand **\<rehrar>** alright, it looks like we have a loose consensus, unless anyone would like to speak now **\<ArticMine>** Sure but how much time is needed between code freeze and release? **\<rehrar>** in opposition **\<luigi1111>** like a week **\<luigi1111>** but fluffy fluffy fluffy **\<selsta>** +1 **\<selsta>** long code freezes never work **\<rehrar>** luigi1111: did not show **\<dEBRUYNE>** We only need fluffy to upload the bins though for the CLI release **\<dEBRUYNE>** (and do the website) **\<luigi1111>** I know but if he's building he has to be able to commit to a schedule **\<sgp\_>** so Thanksgiving weekend hardfork (Nov 30) **\<sech1>** yes, better safe than sorry **\<hyc>** since we have reproducible builds we don't need him to build **\<dEBRUYNE>** rehrar: He said he'd be available for the release (he'd prefer to have a timeline a bit in advance though) **\<rehrar>** luigi1111: if he's unable to commit to a schedule, then we can do the deterministic builds thing, and just make sure they get uploaded **\<luigi1111>** ok cool **\<luigi1111>** then just gooey **\<rehrar>** which is you **\<ArticMine>** The time between code freeze and release need to be set buy those closest to the code **\<rehrar>** can you commit to this schedule? **\<dEBRUYNE>** GUI gets build by pony **\<rehrar>** oof **\<needmonero90>** Speaking of build privs, I would like to formally propose that some of the GUI repo privileges be transferred to dsc (the non deterministic build part at the very least) **\<M5M400>** how can fluffy still be the only person able to do some vital things? **\<luigi1111>** I'm the one going to be doing all the merges in both projects so heh **\<dEBRUYNE>** rehrar: Third time and last time I will say -> He said he'd be available for the release **\<rehrar>** M5M400: that's why deterministic builds is top priority **\<rehrar>** dEBRUYNE: ok **\<ferretinjapan>** M5M400, mainly because reproducible builds were never a thing before now. **\<needmonero90>** luigi1111: we really should move some of those responsibilities to dsc. **\<dEBRUYNE>** needmonero90: I disagree, then we would have coders merging their own stuff **\<needmonero90>** He would be the new maintainer/lead of gui **\<needmonero90>** Or something **\<rehrar>** ok, any other questions in regards to the set dates? October 31st release, November 30th fork. **\<moneromooo>** So what do we need for the release ? readline fixes for repro builds, randomx. The pay-for-service stuff. Payment ID changes. Hopefully the sync-pruned-blocks. Anything else that's large or really needed ? **\<ferretinjapan>** freeze date? **\<rehrar>** needmonero90: that would be the first time a non-core team member will have done this. Not impossible, but certainly unprecedented and worthy of a bigger discussion which we don't have time for here in this meeting **\<dEBRUYNE>** Once we branch the code is basically frozen right? Because then only fixes go in **\<ErCiccione[m]>** one week code freeze would be appreciated. Let's remember that there are the translation to deal with (and i beg for a code freeze since ever :D) **\<needmonero90>** Okay, tabled for now rehrar **\<moneromooo>** vtnerd\_\_: are you planning to have some more network stuff ready for the release ? **\<ferretinjapan>** I guess the #monero-pow guys would have a better idea when to freeze... **\<ArticMine>** Oct 24th as per luigi1111 selsta? **\<luigi1111>** he's not the only one with access to a couple things but the only one that actively used his access **\<dEBRUYNE>** moneromooo: The readline fix is 5892 right? **\<selsta>** ArticMine: yes **\<luigi1111>** until recently where him and pigeons have both not been to active **\<moneromooo>** Could be. Depends on what people who have the problem say after testing it :) **\<dEBRUYNE>** ArticMine: I think we can branch earlier, but moneromooo probably has a better view on that **\<ArticMine>** moneromooo does Oct 24 work for code freeze? **\<ErCiccione[m]>** pigeons is active. I asked him to update the server of getmonero last time **\<moneromooo>** That sounds plausible to me. **\<M5M400>** moneromooo: it appears bittrex and binance still use payment\_id's **\<ErCiccione[m]>** and he also gave me a hand with weblate **\<moneromooo>** Thanks. **\<vtnerd\_\_>** moneromooo : yes, the split mempool is jst about done (finishing core tests nows) **\<rehrar>** wow **\<dEBRUYNE>** M5M400: Binance is working on upgrading their system, needmonero90 is in touch with them **\<rehrar>** vtnerd\_\_: so your stuff will make it in this one? **\<vtnerd\_\_>** and the dandelion++ remnants \_shouldn't\_ be too painful - although I always say that :/ **\<M5M400>** dEBRUYNE: saifu. great. **\<needmonero90>** Binance indicated they should be ready by fork in October. Pushing the date back shouldnt hurt the timeline. **\<M5M400>** anyone in touch with bittrex? **\<dEBRUYNE>** They are aware as far as I know **\<vtnerd\_\_>** I can't say whether it will "make it in", because theres always a chance something comes up during review, etc **\<vtnerd\_\_>** but the split mempool for the i2p/tor is close to ready. my concern is that its kind of tough the way it got shoved in **\<rbrunner>** You mean in a technical sense? **\<vtnerd\_\_>** I took hyc's approach of adding a tag to the metadata, but I had to inspect a bunch of code paths to make sure stuff didn't leak **\<binaryFate>** hi all, sorry got late to the party **\<vtnerd\_\_>** ultimately a true "physical" or "logical" split would be ideal, but it seemed kind of tough at the momnent when I tried to think about hwo to do it **\<moneromooo>** Oh so it's a single txpool, just txes have a flag ? **\<vtnerd\_\_>** yeah, unfortunately **\<M5M400>** are we aware of any GPU miner in the works for randX that will be ready in time for spork? **\<moneromooo>** That's what I did for the sync-from-pruned :) **\<hyc>** M5M400: xmrig is ready **\<luigi1111>** 24th and 31st targets are good with me for 30th fork **\<sech1>** M5M400 xmrig 4.0 is combined CPU + OpenCL miner **\<vtnerd\_\_>** if thats worth a reject, then I can go back and try again, but its a little dicey otherwise (it requires a slightly larger refactor and possibly a second lmdb database) **\<luigi1111>** mostly afk now **\<rehrar>** vtnerd\_\_: if this does make it in this time, it can be iterated on in the future no? **\<M5M400>** hyc: sech1: nice **\<moneromooo>** It's not IMHO. I'd have done that too. **\<moneromooo>** But then I tend to shove things in :) **\<vtnerd\_\_>** yes, I don't think the patch makes it harder to refactor, its probably neutral from that perspective **\<hyc>** I don't really see other approaches to that as being a good idea **\<tevador>** btw, fork height could be 1978433, which is exactly the start of a RandomX epoch and should be in the afternoon CET on Nov 30th **\<vtnerd\_\_>** as an example of what I mean - one of the weird cases is that fluffy blocks request can leak the anonymity channel, etc, so yeah **\<dEBRUYNE>** tevador: Afternoon CET would allow most people to be online, because it would basically be late evening for Asia and morning for US **\<moneromooo>** And let's reset testnet to fork on an epoch boundary too ? **\<tevador>** dEBRUYNE: yeah, nice coincidence **\<ErCiccione[m]>** i guess we have a fork height. Nice **\<rbrunner>** With a testnet fork around release, end of October? **\<hyc>** sounds good **\<dEBRUYNE>** To summarize the timeline, this is approximately correct right? Branch within 2-3 weeks, freeze October 24, release October 31, fork November 30 **\<moneromooo>** I think we have everything we need for v12 now, apart from randomx, so we can fork the real testnet as soon as it gets merged. **\<rbrunner>** Even better then **\<tevador>** that looks like a sensible schedule **\<sech1>** yes, plenty of time to iron out all issues **\<rbrunner>** Famous last words :) **\<dEBRUYNE>** It at least feels we are better prepared now than last time :-P **\<tevador>** someone should strictly enforce code freeze this time **\<rehrar>** penalty of death **\<ErCiccione[m]>** tevador: i strongly agree **\<dEBRUYNE>** moneromooo: Do we need pony around to fork the real testnet? **\<PauleBert>** can we reset stagenet too? it is getting quite huge **\<moneromooo>** Yes, the miner's one of his nodes, and seed nodes need updating too. **\<moneromooo>** The former's not a big problem, but the latter kinda is. **\<needmonero90>** Don't reset stagenet :( **\<dEBRUYNE>** Ok, I will send him a message then **\<needmonero90>** Telegram tipbot uses it **\<rbrunner>** "Reset" means here dropping a few hundreds of blocks probably, no new genesis block **\<needmonero90>** It'll wipe all our balances ;\_; **\<rbrunner>** Back to the latest epoc date, that is **\<needmonero90>** (yes, I know, it's stagenet) **\<rbrunner>** Or a few thousands ... **\<M5M400>** are we in any way concerned about the probably 10x hashrate post fork and the amount of blocks being spit out quickly? might it be a good idea to set a ballpark initial diff? **\<hyc>** I'm guessing that will be offset by the typical hashrate drop due to not everyone updating **\<moneromooo>** I am not. **\<sech1>** I don't think so. It'll rather grow slowly. **\<rbrunner>** I think to remember from earlier forks that "doctoring" the diff is not trivial **\<sech1>** Even with higher hashrate from CPUs, hard fork drop in hashrate will make initial diff roughly the same as now **\<ferretinjapan>** I wouldn't be worried un less ASICs were currently saturating the network, but by the sounds of it, theres been no indication of that being the case... **\<M5M400>** I've seen a few big miners on the pool that are most likely CPU based. one instance of 17MH cn/r. these operations don't miss forks, as opposed to casual miners **\<sech1>** No signs of ASICs **\<ferretinjapan>** thats good. **\<rehrar>** alright, is there anything else of note to discuss? **\<ErCiccione[m]>** minor: is it fine for everybody if we take down the current warning on getmonero, it's there since last fork **\<needmonero90>** We need to talk about extending the Monero Foundation's Dev tax, and the Monero name trademark issue **\<ErCiccione[m]>** i want to avoid people not reading it because they are used to it when we put up the new one **\<needmonero90>** Oh wait wrong coin **\<needmonero90>** We good **\<hyc>** ErCiccione[m]: good idea **\<rbrunner>** Yeah, take it down before it gets a running gag or something **\<rbrunner>** "Monero mixes up its hardforks" **\<rehrar>** alright **\<ErCiccione[m]>** alright, will open a PR tomorrow **\<rehrar>** alright friends, it would seem we're all good **\<needmonero90>** Is Gui considered core? **\<needmonero90>** Or is it it's own thing **\<hyc>** dEBRUYNE: now that randomx has quieted down I'll get to rebasing that gitian PR of mine **\<ErCiccione[m]>** needmonero90: that's actually a good question. See https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/384 **\<selsta>** Please no renaming discussion. **\<selsta>** The github issue is a better place for that. **\<rehrar>** alright everyone, we'll officially break for today **\<rehrar>** thanks for coming. Good discussion, and got a lot done. **\<hyc>** who's posting meeting logs? **\<rehrar>** We can continue on a two weeks schedule for now? Or want to go to one week mini-check in on off weeks? **\<ErCiccione[m]>** hyc: el00ruobuob, usually **\<hyc>** ok. **\<hyc>** I think next mtg in 2 weeks is fine. after that, we can decide again **\<rehrar>** ok **\<ErCiccione[m]>** unles you didn't mean on getmonero **\<rehrar>** sounds good **\<dEBRUYNE>** hyc: Thanks **\<dEBRUYNE>** ErCiccione[m]: I'd prefer to update it with a general information thread regarding the upcoming fork **\<dEBRUYNE>** I can have that ready next week **\<ErCiccione[m]>** dEBRUYNE: sure! will you PR it on repo.getmonero? **\<IRC-Source\_89>** guys sorry for the question , but i missed the begining of the discussion... Have you already choosen a block height for the fork? **\<scoobybejesus>** tevador> btw, fork height could be 1978433, which is exactly the start of a RandomX epoch and should be in the afternoon CET on Nov 30th **\<dEBRUYNE>** ErCiccione[m]: Sure **\<scoobybejesus>** there seemed to be rough consensus on that **\<IRC-Source\_89>** thank you **\<ErCiccione[m]>** dEBRUYNE: great, thank you. Ping el00ruobuob\_ so he remembers to not PR it **\<dEBRUYNE>** I don't mind if he PRs it **\<ErCiccione[m]>** he usally PR them after more than one week, should be fine **\<dEBRUYNE>** Are we talking about the same thing? :P **\<dEBRUYNE>** I was referring to the new information thread regarding the fork **\<ErCiccione[m]>** I was talking about the logs :P i understood you wanted to include them in the thread. **\<ErCiccione[m]>** but anyway, we should really make a blog post about it. **\<sech1>** So will the schedule be officially announced soon? **\<rbrunner>** sgp\_ was fast: https://old.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/d7twle/tentative\_monero\_015\_release\_schedule/ **\<hyc>** sgp already announced it **\<dEBRUYNE>** sgp\_: Perhaps worthwhile to mention in the comments why there is a bit of a delay **\<sgp\_>** I don't know what happened with testnet **\<ErCiccione[m]>** el00ruobuob\_ ignore what i said earlier, we need the logs :P