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Logs for the Community Meeting Held on 2020-03-28 |
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asymptotically / SamsungGalaxyPlayer |
Logs
<sgp_> 0. Introduction
<sgp_> We would like to welcome everyone to this Monero Community Workgroup Meeting!
<sgp_> Link to agenda on GitHub: https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/450
<sgp_> Monero Community meetings are a discussion place for anything going on in the Monero Community, including other Monero workgroups. We use meetings to encourage the community to share ideas and provide support.
<sgp_> 1. Greetings
<xmrscott[m]> Hola
<kinghat[m]> o/
<msvb-mob> Hello.
<sgp_> ping needmonero90 rehrar ErCiccione[m]
* needmonero90 yawns
* needmonero90 rolls over
* needmonero90 zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
<sgp_> lol, you even get an extra hour of sleep now
<sgp_> 2. Community highlights
<sgp_> See Monero weekly highlights at https://revuo-monero.com
<sgp_> I’m soft announcing our new home! https://communityworkgroup.org. We can use this page to more easily organize Monero Community Workgroup resources going forward. It also has a calendar you can subscribe to for meeting reminders. If we have time during open ideas, I’d love to hear your ideas!
<sgp_> Does anyone have community (non-workgroup) updates to share?
<needmonero90> Still waking up, I'll think of something eventually
<sgp_> Community is tired :)
<sgp_> 3. CCS updates
<needmonero90> Ah yes
<needmonero90> Publish0x is blacklisted now
<needmonero90> From the subreddit
<sgp_> long overdue
<needmonero90> Yup, but gotta get announced somewhere
<sgp_> check off that compliance requirement
<needmonero90> Additionally
<needmonero90> I'd like to thank osrsneedsf2p
<needmonero90> He helped us modify the regex for nonparticipation links, so that sister subreddits no longer get your comment removed
<needmonero90> Which is really really nics
<sgp_> excellent
<needmonero90> Nice
<needmonero90> Okay, that's it from my end. Probably one or two more minor things to announce, if I think of them I'll mention
<needmonero90> Carry on :)
<sgp_> speaking of compliance requirements....
<sgp_> Before we get into the usual CCS section, needmoney90 initiated a discussion on the topic of proactively preventing the CCS from being used as a potential vehicle for sanctions funding.
<sgp_> I’m soliciting feedback on adding the following attestation required to open a CCS proposal:
<sgp_> “I declare that I (and the entity and individuals I represent, if applicable) am/are not on OFAC’s Specially Designated Nationals and Blocked Persons List or otherwise covered by any other OFAC sanctions list, which may include entities and individuals in certain jurisdictions.”
<sgp_> https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Pages/default.aspxtions
<rehrar> Sorry here
<sgp_> https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Pages/default.aspx ^^
<needmonero90> I would like the blurb determined by a lawyer
<needmonero90> That does not cover money moving to a covered entity
<sgp_> needmonero90: want to provide one?
<needmonero90> Which also is counted as part of the sanctions
<needmonero90> I've asked Fluffy to talk to the tari people, but thus far he hasn't responded
<needmonero90> Been a few days
<sgp_> you can also rip one from a large company's ToS you find
<ErCiccione[m]> sorry just arrived. Reading backlog
<sgp_> Does anyone have general questions on this or concerns?
<sgp_> Note: this is a *completely* preventative measure
<needmonero90> Nothing on my end, raising the issue once I was aware of it is all I can do atm
<sgp_> We may want to have a wider topic on terms of use like Zcash Foundation's: https://grants.zfnd.org/tos
<sgp_> but we can do that later, just wanted to make sure people are aware of the conversation
<sgp_> needmonero90: want to open a github issue for it in meta?
<needmonero90> Sure.
<sgp_> thanks, it will help with organization
<sgp_> Funding required:
<sgp_> All proposals in funding required are fully-funded!
<rehrar> Disagree.
<rehrar> Don't ask don't tell.
<sgp_> rehrar: there are some concerns that may not be a sufficient policy
<rehrar> The CCS is not based in the USA.
<needmonero90> Donors can be.
<needmonero90> And they should be informed if so, no😆
<needmonero90> *?
<rehrar> They are donating money to the CCS, not the individual.
<rehrar> Which is not based in the CCS.
<sgp_> it's not that simple
<rehrar> *USA
<needmonero90> Ofac covers money transferring through entities to an Ofac covered entity
<needmonero90> It doesn't stop after one hop, you're expected to know the end recipient
<needmonero90> Which is bullshit
<needmonero90> But we're expected to self enforce, at penalty of $55k/violation and 20y in jail max penalty
<needmonero90> If we do not make a note in a CCS about where the money goes, we could have some serious issues for donors (or CCS maintainers should they be located in the US and facilitating the payment)
<selsta> Isn’t this something core team has to decide? They are operating the CCS.
<rehrar> Then what was done (nm90) saying what he found in the comments is the correct way to do.
<needmonero90> I got attacked for that
<rehrar> A measure should NOT be added to the CCS rules. Never.
<needmonero90> Apparently I shouldn't have even mentioned it
<needmonero90> Just ignore it and it'll go away
<needmonero90> Googling peoples usernames is unacceptable
<sgp_> needmonero90: I think people were upset you mentioned it in a specific proposal
<needmonero90> I was literally just told by rehrar to mention it in a specific proposal
<ErCiccione[m]> posting their suspected name in public is unaccettable
<needmonero90> His suggestion is what I just did
<needmonero90> Er, his 'suspected name' is literally the username he's using
<rottensox> ^
<needmonero90> That's not doxxing dude
<sgp_> I didn't know rehrar suggested that
<rehrar> nm90 I'm not thrilled with using comments for it either, but if we HAD to do something, then I'd rather it be that than formalizing the CCS with this red tape.
<ErCiccione[m]> guys are you serious? Posting the suspected personal information on somebody (we are talking about a real profile) is not a good thing at all
<rehrar> Sgp he's referring to my comment above saying the comments would be the way to do it rather than codifying it.
<needmonero90> If it's the first Google result for their username I see no problem.
<needmonero90> That's called due diligence
<nioc> .w nioc
<monerobux> [WIKIPEDIA] National Iranian Oil Company | "The National Iranian Oil Company (NIOC; Persian: شرکت ملّی نفت ایران, romanized: Sherkat-e Melli-ye Naft-e Īrān) is a government-owned national oil and natural gas producer and distributor under the direction of the Ministry of Petroleum of Iran. NIOC was established in 1948 and restructured under The..." | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Iranian_Oil_Company
<ErCiccione[m]> please
<sgp_> still, we should have an idea what to do going forward
<nioc> I guess that I should be banned
<rottensox> ErCiccione[m]: Who - 'My name is Moeen Mohamadi, a native Persian speaker.' https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/133
<rottensox> who posted suspected what if it's alreayd there?
<selsta> You can find real info of a lot of people by just googling, does mean it is okay. If they don’t link to their linkedin, you also shouldn’t in public.
<ErCiccione[m]> eh?
<sgp_> let's make sure this discussion doesn't get derailed too much into a mostly-unrelated topic
<needmonero90> Selsta: are we not allowed to look into the usernames of people we fund?
<needmonero90> Should we ignore that username histories exist?
<needmonero90> Are we not allowed to mention the results of the first page of a Google search?
<sgp_> I'm focusing just on making sure the CCS doesn't have unnecessary liability for donors, CCS proposers, and Core
<needmonero90> Exactly what kind of due diligence do you think is acceptable
<sgp_> needmonero90: maybe it's best to table that question for now
<needmonero90> Because expecting people to not Google a username and report on it is silly
<needmonero90> This is someone we're paying money...
<needmonero90> Anyways.
<rehrar> I sympathize with needmoney90 here somewhat. If someone new is asking for funds, to decide if this person is deserving someone might do a Google.
<kinghat[m]> maybe a longer term goal would be to setup a type of DAO that way nobody is responsible 🤷♂️
<xmrscott[m]> nm90: OSINT is technically fair game, but I digress
<needmonero90> Googling the username of a potential donee strikes me as like, the very basic of basic due diligence
<needmonero90> Exactly how else do you look into a person's history
<selsta> rehrar: Googling a person is okay. Posting their linkedin without asking isn’t. If there are doubts, core can do this in private.
<needmonero90> The username is like, the first thread
<needmonero90> Literally the first hit for his username
<needmonero90> How is reporting the first thing returned about his username doxxing
<nioc> given that nobody knows who donated to which CCS, who is responsible?
<needmonero90> Sorry for carrying on sgp
<sgp_> ok I need to cut this off, we need to take a step back since the discussion on what is fair to research isn't going to go anywhere
<needmonero90> I'm done
<sgp_> point is rehrar I'm representing a community's perspective in saying that your desired solution may not be adequate for the safety/liability of donors, CCS proposers and the funds they receive, etc. I genuinely think it's worth coming up with a ToS
<sgp_> even if Core doesn't care, other people might
<rehrar> Then people should assess the risk of donating to the CCS.
<rehrar> I will bring it up with core, but I'm certain they will not be happy with making a ToS.
<sgp_> well if the risk is high to the point the platform is useless, that's a community problem
<selsta> not sure why we should create a ToS for someone else.
<needmonero90> Like by being informed if there's a potential legal risk with donating to a certain proposal?
<sgp_> ^
<rehrar> sgp_: then let it be so.
<sgp_> great :/
<rehrar> This is Monero, guys. We aren't Zcash.
<needmonero90> And we also don't want to open ourselves up to an easy attack
<rehrar> If the risk is too great for some on scary proposals, then don't donate.
<rehrar> Many/most proposals don't have this issue and won't carry risk.
<needmonero90> We already had proposals from venezuelans
<sgp_> the perception of a risky platform is a huge concern
<needmonero90> So we crossed the line already
<kinghat[m]> ✊
<nioc> •sgp_> well if the risk is high to the point the platform is useless, that's a community problem <-- sending 3xmr is high risk?
<needmonero90> We should have had this discussion before any sanctioned countries came into the cross hair, but the discussion is happening now.
<sgp_> nioc: potentially, "it depends"
<needmonero90> [conversation totally over]
<rehrar> Just shut up if about if you donated or not?
<ErCiccione[m]> all this is way overamplified
<selsta> Core team has lawyers. They should decide all this. No one is a lawyer here so the discussion is useless.
<sgp_> in any case, I think we can move on for now. discussions can continue on Github or whatever
<sgp_> Ideas (to be discussed):
<sgp_> Mining outreach, Ministo (40 XMR) https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/124
<sgp_> No movement on this in a month, so I will skip. Feedback was mostly negative last time we discussed it.
<ErCiccione[m]> selsta: +1
<sgp_> [Monero Aligned] Proposal for 1M5 Integration as Proxy, Brian Taylor (150 XMR) https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/127
<sgp_> No movement on this in a month, so I will skip.
<sgp_> Norwegian translation of webplate + footers + nav. Menu, Chris Avis (6 XMR) https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/129
<sgp_> Does anyone know the status of this?
<sgp_> rehrar do you recall if this was discussed last meeting?
<ErCiccione[m]> I'm ok with it. Fair price good quality
<sgp_> any other comments here? otherwise I think it can be moved
<rehrar> I don't recall.
<sgp_> Monero Debian Package Repository for 2 years, Patrick Schleizer (60 XMR) https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/130
<sgp_> Do we need to discuss this one further?
<rehrar> I say no. It should be moved.
<rehrar> Although prices on all of these should maybe be adjusted?
<sgp_> right, I encourage you and luigi to reping ones to be moved for a chance to update if needed
<rehrar> Sounds good. I'll ping him now.
<sgp_> erciccione: part time work (April-May) on Getmonero.org https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/134
<sgp_> approval from me
<selsta> I also gsve a +1
<sgp_> Persian translation of the GUI wallet https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/133
<sgp_> ErCiccione[m]: you expressed some concerns?
<ErCiccione> I say no. Most because of the high price and the fact that everything he writes is in an english more broken than mine
<ErCiccione> for that rate, i would expect a professional translator with a super CV
<sgp_> thanks, good to know
<xmrscott[m]> And thus English comprehension may not be adequate I take it?
<nioc> +1 for ErCiccione's proposal
<dEBRUYNE> I also deemed his comments toward the community quite negative
<TrasherDK> Second that.
<dEBRUYNE> Plus no track record of voluntary work on Monero (related) projects
<TrasherDK> That too.
<ErCiccione> i agree dEBRUYNE that was the nail of the coffin from me, very bad attitude
<sgp_> ok, sounds like a recommendation to reject there
<sgp_> Any other CCS comments before we move on?
<ErCiccione> (Thanks for the support btw selsta nioc sgp_)
<ErCiccione> i would have suggested him to ask half what is asking, but after his behaviour it's just a nono
<sgp_> ErCiccione: you're a frequent leader, we need more of that
<ErCiccione> onward!
<ErCiccione> :P
<dEBRUYNE> <ErCiccione> (Thanks for the support btw selsta nioc sgp_) <= Another +1 from me :p
<sgp_> 4. Workgroup report
<dEBRUYNE> ErCiccione: Also him using the maximum rate of the rate bound you suggested
<sgp_> a. Daemon/CLI workgroup
<sgp_> new point release is out
<ErCiccione> dEBRUYNE: yeah that was sad (thank you too btw)
<sgp_> https://getmonero.org/2020/03/19/monero-0.15.0.5-released.html
<sgp_> b. Localization workgroup
<sgp_> go ahead
<ErCiccione> Not much, but now the roadmap of the website is translatable on weblate
<ErCiccione> but
<ErCiccione> outreach folks are looking for people to create articles/art and whatever in languages different from english
<ErCiccione> so if anybody has anything to offer, get in touch with them
<ErCiccione> and one good news
<ErCiccione> can be that weblate soon will be able to translate plain markdown files
<ErCiccione> that could be useful to all workgroups, because would give the possibility to translate stuff that wasn't possible to translate before
<ErCiccione> so, keeping an eye on that
<ErCiccione> And there is big need of translators for the website:
<ErCiccione> https://translate.getmonero.org/projects/getmonero/monero-site/
<ErCiccione> so if you can and have time, please translate stuff
<ErCiccione> that's it
<sgp_> I'm looking forward to the markdown feature
<rehrar> I have something to discuss when this we ready for open ideas time.
<sgp_> noted rehrar
<ErCiccione> yeah, would solve the problem of the documentation of getmonero.
<sgp_> c. GUI workgroup
<sgp_> https://getmonero.org/2020/03/05/monero-GUI-0.15.0.4-released.html
<sgp_> d. Outreach workgroup
<sgp_> Is anyone from outreach here?
<selsta> I can give a small GUI update
<sgp_> otherwise I'll just tease that there is a new article coming out soon with no other details
<sgp_> selsta: that would be much appreciated, thanks
<selsta> xiphon is working on an update downloader
<selsta> so that the GUI automatically downloads a new update, verifies the hashes and opens the folder containing the new version
<sarang> Does/will it use the stuff that moneromooo built for doing this?
<selsta> I think it shares some code but mooos tool is only for CLI currently as GUI has no reproducible builds yet
<rehrar> What's the word on that btw?
<rehrar> Reproducible builds for the GUI?
<selsta> still work in progress
<selsta> will take a while
<selsta> but progress is made already, you can build with cmake on linux and windows
<selsta> ok that’s all for GUI
<sgp_> selsta: I added a reminder to my notes to ask you for an update next time
<sgp_> e. Website workgroup
<sgp_> ErCiccione: you have the floor again
<ErCiccione> yay
<ErCiccione> i posted updates here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/foooc6/getmoneroorg_updated_new_roadmap_page_1_new/
<monerobux> [REDDIT] Getmonero.org updated: New roadmap page, 1 new moneropedia entry, 1 new FAQ entry, new MRL paper, updated guides and more (self.Monero) | 52 points (86.0%) | 11 comments | Posted by ErCiccione | Created at 2020-03-25 - 11:23:58
<ErCiccione> as i said, the roadmap has now a different structure, it's translatable on weblate and it's much easier to update
<ErCiccione> i have some open MR that need testing, so please take a look: https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/monero-site/-/merge_requests
<ErCiccione> Currently working on adding another moneropedia entry and on the FAQ
<kinghat[m]> <selsta "but progress is made already, yo"> reproducible build on linux and win?
<selsta> no, only cmake
<selsta> which is a first step to reproducible builds
<kinghat[m]> not sure what that looks like on actual IRC btw
<sgp_> You also commented in a related discussion to move the website back to Github: https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/236#issuecomment-605023567
<kinghat[m]> thanks selsta
<ErCiccione> yes sgp_ i finally capitulated and now i agree we should move back monero-site to github
<ErCiccione> reasons explained in the comment you posted
<kinghat[m]> whats the word on the GUI builds for the current release?
<ErCiccione> hope core agrees and we can move back in a reasonable timeframe
<sgp_> I agree fwiw since I often forget to check Gitlab
<kinghat[m]> 0.15.0.5*
<ErCiccione> i think that's the case for many
<selsta> kinghat[m]: Snipa does builds and he is a bit busy with setting up WFH for his workplace due to current events.
<selsta> so should be out some time, not sure when yet
<sgp_> I'm going to move on to the next update since we absolutely need to get to it, thanks selsta kinghat[m] and ErCiccione
<kinghat[m]> understandable. tyvm.
<sgp_> f. Monero Research Lab
<sarang> Hi
<sgp_> Sarang Noether has an important update on the Monero Research Lab
<sarang> My colleague suraeNoether stated in an earlier MRL meeting that he would have extremely limited availability for the time being
<sarang> partly because of this, CLSAG had been delayed while I waited on his approval/fixes for the preprint (he is a coauthor)
<sarang> I've since received his permission to just make changes and post the preprint
<sarang> So
<sarang> If anyone has ideas and thoughts about what they feel should be research priorities going forward, please join the next #monero-research-lab meeting on Wednesday at 17:00 UTC
<sarang> Because of this change, I'm now completing final proofreading of the CLSAG preprint
<sarang> and finalizing some optimized code for later audit/review
<sarang> as well as coordinating trezor/ledger support so it's ready to go
<sarang> Separately, Triptych-2 was posted to IACR, and I'm working on some multisig and join-type math for it
<sgp_> Do you expect to be the only full-time researcher for the foreseeable future?
<sarang> I am currently the only CCS-supported full-time researcher
<sarang> and I do not know when/if suraeNoether will choose to do full-time research
<sarang> I don't want to speak for him
<sgp_> thanks for the update. does anyone have any questions?
<sarang> So anyway, I'm working hard to get a lot of projects moving forward
<sarang> and will continue to do the best I can
<kinghat[m]> 🙏
<sgp_> sarang: can you provide a nice overview of projects before the wednesday meeting?
<sarang> You mean an overview right now?
<sarang> Sure
<sarang> Or just post to a github gist for easy reading?
<sgp_> I was more thinking a gist, yes
<sarang> Sure
<sgp_> thank you
<sarang> Will post a link here and in -lab later today
<sarang> See -lab topic or meta github issue for meeting details
<sgp_> anything else sarang?
<sarang> No, I don't think so
<sgp_> ok, let's get to rehrar's thing then
<sgp_> 5. Open ideas time
<sgp_> It’s open ideas time! Feel free to propose your ideas to this discussion group, and feel free to comment on others’ ideas. If you disagree with the idea, please reply with constructive criticism. Thank you!
<sgp_> go ahead rehrar
<rehrar> so yeah, I just wanted to get a general poll from attendees about putting together virtual meetups on a weekly or biweekly basis
<rehrar> would this be something that would just add noise? Or could it be useful for having fun (especially during these times)?
<sgp_> I'm for it but I'd rather just use Jitsi than VR
<needmonero90> so, VR really means 3d virtual space
<needmonero90> because it allows conversations to self organize
<M5M400> what kind of equipment does someone need to attend these meetings rehrar
<needmonero90> jitsi may be nice, but it has issues with multiple conversation tracks
<sgp_> also note that we have activities planned on every Saturday next month (2 community meetings, Coffee Chat, and Moneroversary)
<msvb-mob> A normal physical lab group is doing this with Jitsi, with limited success. Mostly socialising value.
<rehrar> M5M400: a computer
<needmonero90> theres no such thing as a 'hallway track' for a broadcast event
<msvb-mob> Probably is fun for some people, so it's good that rehrar is researching.
<M5M400> rehrar: no VR goggles or anything?
<rehrar> M5M400, VR equipment not needed for the VR space.
<needmonero90> possible but not necessary
<rehrar> M5M400, want to try it out after the meeting? It's browser based.
<sarang> rehrar and I tested this earlier
<M5M400> btw thanks for bringing jitsi to my life. I deployed it at work and it's replaced stupid webex since this crisis :)
<rehrar> It will take effort to organize, and I Don't know if this is the best use of my time if it won't be used, so I just wanted to get opinions.
<sgp_> M5M400: ikr, it's a life-saver
<M5M400> oh, I crashed into a meeting. sorry. didn't want to OT
<rehrar> M5M400, I know all of the FOSS.
<selsta> My laptop which works fine for developing is not strong enough VR so I guess you need a recent computer :P
<msvb-mob> rehrar: What was the results of testing the Mozilla meeting tool?
<rehrar> msvb-mob: everyone thought positively of it after use
<rehrar> it's quite versatile
<msvb-mob> The name?
<sgp_> I'm happy to announce a meeting in whatever format to the Monero Chicago meetup group
<sarang> The only downside was that volume is distance-dependent
<sarang> so it seemed unsuitable for a lecture-type event
<rehrar> msvb-mob: Mozilla Hubs
<sarang> as in, moving farther away from a speaker's avatar makes them quieter, as in real life
<rehrar> sarang: we tested and you can turn the speaker up
<sarang> Oh neat, nvm them
<sarang> *then
<rehrar> so much so that you can hear them from far away
<msvb-mob> sarang: The volume problem is when using Mozilla Hubs or another tool?
<rehrar> Hubs, but it's not a problem.
<sarang> the Mozilla tool that rehrar and I had tested
<sgp_> rehrar just wants to make sure we can't avoid his rants
<sarang> so I withdraw my comment msvb-mob
<rehrar> https://hub.link/ktcMqWR
<rottensox> lol.
<rehrar> hop on sarang, sgp_, msvb-mob, rottensox, M5M400
<sarang> I unfortunately cannot (other tasks to complete today)
<rehrar> ok
<sgp_> see this is a case where jitsi is slightly easier since I want to be on while I make pancakes
<xmrscott[m]> I'm down for reoccuring VR meetups
<sgp_> anything else? I'll see if I can hop on while cooking
<xmrscott[m]> Or perhaps I should say 'VR' given technically you don't need a VR setup to use Mozilla Hubs
<kinghat[m]> as a long term goal why not look into a type of DOA for funding. not controlled centrally, no liability.
<sgp_> I'm going to wrap up the formal meeting now. Thanks for the idea rehrar; I think it's a good one
<rehrar> Coo
<sgp_> 6. Confirm next meeting date/time
<sgp_> The next community meeting will be in 2 weeks on 11 April at 17:00 UTC.
<sgp_> The next Coffee Chat is next week on 4 April at 17:00 UTC. The Moneroversary is on April 18.
<sgp_> expect next meeting to mostly be about planning the moneroversary (maybe I'll schedule 2 hours)
<sgp_> 7. Conclusion
<sgp_> That’s all! Thanks for attending this Monero Community meeting, and we hope to see you on r/MoneroCommunity and #monero-community. Take care, STAY SAFE AND ISOLATED, and know that change starts with YOU.
